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Carcharodontosaurus saharicus skeletal diagrams. by Franoys Carcharodontosaurus saharicus skeletal diagrams. by Franoys
"After all these things, it is a matter of a theropod form that is distinctly different from the previously known species, which I name Carcharodontosaurus according to the gross similarity with the teeth of Carcharodon. Carcharodontosaurus saharicus (DÉPERET and SAVORNIN).  Middle Cretaceous of North Africa. - (Stromer et al, 1931)

Carcharodontosaurus is a carnivorous theropod dinosaur, which lived in the african piece of the godwanan continent. At some point, the populations of theropods that would evolve into Carcharodontosaurus became isolated from their south american sister taxons, such as Tyrannotitan or Giganotosaurus. 

The holotype was found in 1931 and described by stromer, which also gave a name to the Carcharodontosauridae family. Soon after, the remains were bombed in WW2, along with other dinosaurs described also by Stromer, like the Spinosaurus holotype. But the description of the animal remained, and allows an attemp to restore it. Later on (in 1996) , Paul Sereno found a 1,28 meters piece of a skull of another individual of the same species. It is the new type of the species, and belongs to an animal 12.5% than the destroyed holotype.

Missing parts were restored aftter Tyrannotitan and Giganotosaurus, the closest relatives of Carcharodontosaurus both geostratifically and filogenetically, and the ones that match it's proportions better.
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:iconpaleojoe:
PaleoJoe Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2017  Student Traditional Artist
Great update along with Tyrannotitan. How much would SGM-Din 1 weigh compared to the paratype of Tyrannotitan, seeing as the latter has very tall spines and the former is overrall longer?
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Edited Jan 16, 2017
I'm actually very unsure on the change of the neural spines and have been thinking of reverting it back. Carcharodontosaurus doesn't have any material that is indicative of the size of them. So they could be very long as in Tyrannotitan, or shorter as in Giganotosaurus, and since this is based majorly on Tyrannotitan, I might revert that change back. 

Having that changed is likely that Carcharodontosaurus could have massed more, but it's pubis seems to be shorter in relation to the other elements in the Carcharodontosaurus holotype than in Tyrannotitan, so the torso could have had a reduced depth, so it is hard to say. I think they would have massed very similarly, and similarly to Acrocanthosaurus too.
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:iconpaleojoe:
PaleoJoe Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2017  Student Traditional Artist
Good point. Thank you for the explanation.
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:iconpcawesomeness:
PCAwesomeness Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2017
ded

no big surprise
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:iconkirkseven:
kirkseven Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2017
not dead.

reborn.
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:iconpcawesomeness:
PCAwesomeness Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2017
I'm saying "ded" because it's no longer a 14 meter long megabeast.

(Not complaining; I'm just laughing)
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:iconkirkseven:
kirkseven Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2017
probably isnt but i wouldn't act like its a solid fact.
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:iconpcawesomeness:
PCAwesomeness Featured By Owner Jan 21, 2017
OK.
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:icon105697:
105697 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2017
Lol.

Carcharodontosaurus is now shorter than the holotype rex.
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Edited Jan 12, 2017
Not really, at least, not shorter than Hartman's skeletal. Hartman's CM 9380 is 11.9 meters over the curves of the back and 11,74 m along the centra of the vertebrae.
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:iconkirkseven:
kirkseven Featured By Owner Edited Jan 13, 2017
well not really his fault he just went with the listed numbers just as once i did.


yesterday..
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2017
XD.

Well to be fair CM rex length is speculative to a great degree because the animal is not very complete, anyway the length is only one dimension and doesn't dictate total body size, mass does ( as you alredy know).
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:iconkirkseven:
kirkseven Featured By Owner Jan 10, 2017
do you think the update will make Carcharodontosaurus Dip below 12 meters ?
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:iconjonagold2000:
JonaGold2000 Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It did
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:iconkirkseven:
kirkseven Featured By Owner Jan 12, 2017
i see..  very good franoys i like it.
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:iconmete999:
MeTe999 Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2017
U must be mad or a faggot to think that Carch was so small. 14-15 m long at very least.
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:iconveterufreak:
Veterufreak Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Franoys isn't mad, but I know that you are both insecure and biased. Seriously, getting so emotional because Franoys poured hours and hours into research and created a real perspective on this amazing animal shows both of these things clearly. Also don't say that word starting with 'F', it means you're either homophobic or just succumbed to the stupid internet culture. By the way, don't get mad at me for being "mean" after you were offensive and rude to Franoys. I suggest you either do some research and respect every animal for what it is or give up on prehistory as a whole. And if you aren't willing to do research, and you want to still be a fan of dinosaurs, listen to people who actually know what they're talking about. There's no theropod known that could be 14-15 meters besides Spinosaurus. No carcharodontosaurid known thus far could even be 13+ meters. The largest one is the Giganotosaurus holotype, measuring around 12.2 meters and massing out at 6,800 kilograms. Carcharodontosaurus was probably of similar size, but a little smaller using known specimens. (The Giganotosaurus paratype is really bad, it could literally just be from the same sized animal as the holotype so I disregard it except for cementing the fact that Giganotosaurus got to sizes of about 12.2 meters)
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:iconmete999:
MeTe999 Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2017
I'm homophobic since males don't deserve to be loved, let alone males lovin' other males. Gig is indeed that 12 m faggot you pointed out (I've seen people claimin' it to be 12.4 m long, but that doesn't change it's a 40 ft pussy) but Carch, based on Acro, is like 14-15 m; add cartilagine and you get the 16 m raper I'm talkin' about.
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:iconshaochilong66:
Shaochilong66 Featured By Owner Apr 20, 2017
Fuccin homophobe
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:iconmete999:
MeTe999 Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2017
What do you tell me about the holotype? Its skull looks as long as its femur, like in Acro.
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Edited Jan 7, 2017
I alredy adressed that in my previous comment, perhaps I did it in a overcomplicated manner or perhaps you didn't pay enough attention. Carcharodontosaurus holotype's (IPHG 1922, which is portrayed in this skeletal restoration) skull is not fully preserved and is extremely fragmentary, as described in Stromer 1931, the skull consists of two fragments of the left maxilla, (The big one is 47 cm long, and the small one 22 cm long, which were the ones that were mainly used to scale the holotype's skull), and two of the right maxilla ,two incomplete nassals, missing all of the articular processes with the lacrimals; and there are also a supraoccipital, the exocipital, and the braincase. You can see how IPHG 1922 skull compares to SGM din 1 skull here (the red parts are the preserved bones):
 franoys.deviantart.com/art/Car….

(Keep in mind that both skull lengths are too large there because the premaxilla and the quadratojugals are oversized, however this bones are no relevant on how the relative size of both skulls work)

The skull size that we know with more certainty is that of SGM din 1. By doing a best fit of the elements known in IPHG 1922 (making the teeth's sockets coincide and following the instructions in Stromer 1931 drive.google.com/open?id=0B-K0…)  we infer that the skull size of IPHG 1922 is about 89 % the skull length of SGMI din 1 (1,528 m) which would make it 1.360 m long, which is far of the size of it's femur, which is 1.260 meters long. In Tyrannotitan, the skull is about 1,5 meters long and the femur 1,41 meters long (Canale, Novas 2014). Carcharodontosaurus' skull length/ femur ratio is 1.079 and Tyrannotitan's is 1.064, which is surprisingly close, as you would expect from two very closely related animals. Giganotosaurus has a skull length/ femur length ratio of about 1.07- 1.12  (Coria , Salgado 1995, Carrano 2012) , but it also has a longer fibula and tibia than Carcharodontosaurus which suggest that it's hindlimb proportions are just a bit different.

In Acrocanthosaurus specimen NCSM 14345 (Carpenter and Currie, 2000), the biggest and most complete specimen; the skull length is estimated at 1,29 meters premaxilla to quadrate and the incomplete femur at 1,277 m, (which some people has argued against because it seems like the length it was restored with isn't coherent with the rest of it's measurements and how it scales from the only complete Acrocanthosaurus femur, which is that of .) If this estimations are valid, Acrocanthosaurus skull/ femur length ratio is 1.009 which is far from the ratios of Carcharodontosaurus and Tyrannotitan.

Furthermore a Carcharodontosaurus with Acrocanthosaurus proportions has never been suggested in the scientific literature. It was done by two carnivora forum members who compared the maxilla bits and the nassals of IPHG 1922 incorrectly to those of SGM din 1 (theropod and broly) and they don't even believe in it anymore.
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:iconveterufreak:
Veterufreak Featured By Owner Edited Jan 6, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Okay, at least you acknowledge Giganotosaurus length. However Giga is not used to scale Carchar (okay well, not directly). Use the closest relative to Carcharodontosaurus. Take a look at any phylogeny ever. Acrocanthosaurus is very basal. Also I've seen your scrappy argument for why you should base Carchar on Acro, it doesn't make sense. You say something like, what, the skull to femur ratio is similar?
1) Pretty sure that's not true because you're using an oversized femur. No femur of SGM Din1 (the largest Carch) is known and you extrapolated it wrong
2) Tyrannotitan is the one that actually has VERY similar leg proportions and jugal to Carcharodontosaurus and is closest animal to it phylogenetically as well.
Tyrannotitan is the perfect base. You can get a rough idea of Carch's size using Tyrannotitan and Carcharodontosaurus skull size and scaling Tyrannotitan skull size up, but I would think Franoys will update the Carch skeletal to reflect its newer size more accurately so I would wait until then. I have no idea what you are talking about with "cartilagine," skeletals already have the cartilage. Also I'm going to ignore your baseless hate of both men and homosexuals, it's extremely offensive and stupid but hopefully you'll grow out of that nonsense.
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:iconmete999:
MeTe999 Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2017
If you were going to ignore it, my dear, you wouldn't have mentioned it. Ah, U faggot and idiot cannot even keep HIS own stupidity under controll.

As for other things, you see, Carch holotype had a skull which was as long as its femur, just like in goddamn Acro!
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:iconveterufreak:
Veterufreak Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Oh trust me, I tried my best to ignore it. I was going to mention it but not actually go ballistic like I wanted to because I realize you're just immature and attacking you would just make you worse. I suggest that you stop using that repulsive language for the benefit of you and everyone who speaks with you. And the skull to femur ratio is completely ridiculous, you're just trying to find some excuse to get the largest possible Carcharodontosaurus. The truth is that it's not perfect to just scale Carcharodontosaurus from any animal, it's best to just get its actual size using its actual remains which is what Franoys is doing in this deviation. I'm not going to reply to any more nonsense you have to spew out, so if I were you I wouldn't even bother replying yourself.
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:iconjonagold2000:
JonaGold2000 Featured By Owner Edited Jan 6, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Cartilage is already in that 14-15m estimate. So if you're doing that Sue would be 13 meters or more.
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:iconmete999:
MeTe999 Featured By Owner Jan 6, 2017
Actually it isn't. Look:

Acro's skull=130 cm
Carch's skull=160 cm
Acro's lenght=12 m

12:1.3=9.2
9.2*1.6=14.7 <<<< Carch's lenght without cartilague
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:iconjonagold2000:
JonaGold2000 Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Acrocanthosaurus is 11.8 at best. ;) And the length of it already includes the cartilage, by this logic I can scale every specimen with an extra 5%
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:iconyu-gi-nos:
Yu-Gi-Nos Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2016  Student General Artist
The Pharaoh of Egypt!
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:iconkirkseven:
kirkseven Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
very nice!

so SGM Din 1 could be comparable in size to Scott Hartmans Giganotosaurus holotype?
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Edited Oct 9, 2016
It seems so. Perhaps a bit lighter, at least based of the dorsal and/ or anterior view of the skull, and comparing that to that of giganotosaurus. Although it is hard to say if that would extrapolate to the whole body, so I would say yes.
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:iconkirkseven:
kirkseven Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
6.4 tonnes?
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
Perhaps...
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:iconthedinorocker:
thedinorocker Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
Wow without any cross-working You got exactly the same result I had few years ago...
11 m ca for the holotype and an over 12 m neotype...
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
It is hard to get a result much different from this one. Most I've seen are similar to this and yours also.
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:iconthedinorocker:
thedinorocker Featured By Owner Oct 10, 2016
I ve seen 14+m est for the neotype with head-femur ratio by far off for carcharodontosaurids...
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:iconspinosaurus14:
Spinosaurus14 Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
Any ideas for giganotosaurus?
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
Unfortunately, i don't have access to enough data on Giganotosaurus :(. So definately not in a near future. But I have started other projects!
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:iconspinosaurus14:
Spinosaurus14 Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
For example?
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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
franoys.deviantart.com/art/Tea…

Also some charts, mass stimations, etc.
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